Give us a primer on the history of the swing look. Do you think the louder zoot suits are kind of a media creation from the movies back then?

Those are really cool - surreal looking. But those are all period suits, and wearing one of those kind of suits today would be a fashion risk; people would look at you.

They must weigh like 50 pounds, too.

Yeah, they do. I have one that's really heavy, really hot.

It's very clean, the way it's presented on TV.

Yeah. I think people see these fashion shows and go, "I would never wear that." Well, you've got to realize that maybe it's not for you to wear. It's fashion art as opposed to wearable stuff. The question is, how would you make a zoot suit or a contemporary swing suit that was wearable and also mixed elements of the millennium and 1943?

Perhaps covering three or four different eras and styles: swing, punk, ska, pop.

If it could be a little sporty and sort of conservative. Of lighter materials so it's not so hot. So if you wear a wool jacket, it's way too hot. Someone could invent something like that.

You can create your own zoot suit.

There are ways to make a cheap zoot suit, too. The thing is to get a double-breasted suit that's gigantic - for small people it works out. I'm 5'8", 130 pounds, so I can find these giant double-breasted suits, take them in at the waist, and make the trousers go tight around my ankles and let the crotch hang low and voila, you've got a zoot suit.

You've got to get that shape - the upside down triangle.

They call it a "drape." As far as making it contemporary, now that's a tough one 'cause all those suits are very flashy and racy to begin with. But how would you make something like that - and what is contemporary anyway? You know what I mean? Contemporary fashion is kind of a mish-mash of a lot of different ideas. So it takes a real artist like Vivienne Westwood or someone like that who throws disparate elements together and creates something that's really attractive. I've seen a lot of fashion shows, like Elsa Clench, on TV and, God, I want to gag.

If someone wanted to put together an homage fashion-wise to that era, what else would they need?

Well, definitely I'd say either a big baggy zoot suit-type thing or a double-breasted suit, kind of padded, would be the basic style from the era. And let the tie be the most zingy thing about the suit. If they were doing it for me, what I would tell the designer is keep it in the earth tones. Maybe make it a little weirder - peach or some sort of mustard.

What about the shirt?

The shirt should in some way work with the tie and the outside. The shirt can be anything from just a bland solid primary to a print that goes with the tie. And it can be wild too. If you've got a brown suit or a dark blue suit or something that's kind of grey you use a lime green pow kind of shirt, and it'll give the outfit a lot more zing.

The other thing that's really important is shoes. If you're wearing a double-breasted suit or something that's kind of bland, if you have alligator shoes or wing-tips - in Detroit you can get these 'gators, but they're lime-green or yellow. I think Stacy Adams makes shoes like that, too. There're all sorts of shoes, but the shoes can be super snazzy.

Are suspenders a part of the outfit, too, or are they optional?

I think a lot of Pachucos wore suspenders backwards so their front would be a straight line.

So the buckles wouldn't show.

Yeah, they'd go backwards like that. I don't wear suspenders with my suits, but I would. With my zoot suit I do, though. That's kind of a standard way to do it. You want to get a sense of flashiness.

And then you do up the hair?

A short hair-cut, obviously, works best. You want a short haircut.

Sideburns, or is that too rockabilly?

I don't know. I used to have sideburns, and then I started cutting them off. I think sideburns are a little rockabilly. Sideburns do work with a swing outfit, though.

The swing outfit is very neat, though, very slick.

Yeah. The hair combed back, generally, using whatever molding mud, popping it back and giving it a little height.

What about accessories?

A tie clip or tie bar, so that when you're dancing your tie doesn't hit you in your face - you put it on to hold your tie to your shirt.

The hat is pretty optional, right?

The hat is optional. You know if you're going to get your hair all perfect, why do you want to put a hat on? But then again if you've got a cool hat - there's a lot of Fedora wearing with the zoot suits. My personal fashion opinion is that Fedoras are cliches. I wouldn't wear a Fedora, but you can find cooler hats.

You want to make it look natural.

You want to make it look natural so you find any kind of hat that either goes way over the top - like a lot of the zoot suits have the Panama hats with the really wide, wide, wide brim and a huge feather - like a Peacock feather - draping right over the back. Either go one direction or the other. It's not a conservative Fedora, which is what businessmen used to wear, but it goes way past that. Like the hat I have on right now, I don't know what you'd call it but it's got a really small brim.

In other conversations you have mentioned Cab Calloway as one of your guides. What are some of your other fashion influences?

Right. Well, for me, I really like that soul Carnaby street kind of mod thing, that flashy early stuff, too. I don't know if I'd wear it. I wouldn't wear a frilly Edwardian collar, but I like the velvet, the maroon kind of taped trousers, that kind of stuff. I also like the later mod stuff which is more the sharkskin kind of rude boy, thin lapels. You know the early rude boy outfits where they'd have a green or a brown suit with thin lapels, but underneath it they'd wear a Hawaiian print shirt with no tie. And the porkpie hat. I like that stuff too. As far as swing and Cab Calloway, that kind of zoot suit is really awesome. There's also a brand of zoot suit that's more Latino which I've seen worn without ties with a sort of open shirt. It came out in Los Angeles, and it it's too hot to wear a tie there. The jacket would be open and the shirt collar would be over the front of the jacket so it'd be a little more airy. And then of course there's the Al Capone gangster kind of look which is real traditional - the double-breasted dotted zoot suit.

Talk a little about women's fashion in swing culture.

There's Betty Page in the hair department, definitely. I think it's a really good-looking look. But what they'll do is take the bangs and curl them inward. There's a little sort of curl at the forehead level, and it's a little bit longer than a bob, a Jennifer Aniston bob. And it has this bounce to it - good if you're a dancer. And they wear what's called a snood where you take your hair and you put it in this bag. I think that's a really cute look, myself. Also there's the blonde bombshell curl Betty Boop-style haircut. I think the quasi-Betty Page swing hairdo is the sexiest of them all. The sportiest.

What kind of clothes do the women wear?

You'll notice in Orange County and Southern California - I'll keep going with the women's look 'cause it's hot there - it's kind of sporty. There'll be the kind of girls' shoes with a velvet leopard print on the toe piece and then they'll be those hair - not barrettes, I don't know what those things are called, kind of circular things - those will have leopard print on them. Animal prints are used a lot. Short skirts and bobby socks - this is all basically to make it easier for you to swing dance and not get super duper hot. I've seen girls wearing those Andrew Sisters kind of dresses too, which seem to be a little more hot, and with stockings and saddle shoes.

So there's practicality as well.

Practicality. I think the new swing look is to be a little more sporty. So it's kind of a cross between a Betty Page with an animal print kind of look. The skirts are a mid-thigh kind of thing.

So it's designed to facilitate going out of dancing.

It's not looking hyper-elegant, it's more of a '90s-woman kind of thing.

Do you think that's why it's had this resurgence of popularity also?

Yeah, maybe. I see that more in the all-ages kind of swingers kind of thing. When you're talking about going to a 21-and-over club, and it's older women, they tend to have these velvet dresses with the low backs, stuff like that.

Cigarette cases.

Yeah, they're more of that Greta Garbo Hollywood star look. Or dancer outfits, in some way. But when you do these shows it's got more of a punk rock feel, and the Betty Page haircuts and sporty little skirts and stuff like that, animal prints...I've seen those - and this is really sexy, too - girls with wife-beaters. Guys will wear wife-beaters as sort of a swing undergarment.

Well let's clarify the wife-beater as the Marlon Brando t-shirt.

A white t-shirt with no sleeves. It's like a tank top. And you'll see a girl with a wife-beater on with a black bra under it or a leopard print bra, a little black skirt that goes down to about mid-thigh, white or leopard print or some sort of print bobby socks with the little fringes on them, and then these kind of shoes that are not Doc Martens. They come from England and they have the little leopard print or the animal print on it. They're kind of sporty but they're kind of styley too. And something in their hair that will also be about the print. And they'll have a little handbag, you know, a little tiny handbag. And with the Betty Page cut, the bangs cut and turned in as opposed to just cut straight across.

What about the car culture, 'cause it's kind of a West Coast thing.

Vintage, greaser car culture. That's a big part of it.

So you've got to have an old American-made car.

The kind with the fins. Either a Rambler or things like that. Anything square. The push-button transmission is great. The '56 Pontiac - those were the dream car, and you park it out front. Anything stretched.

Where would kids go to get themselves an authentic outfit?

I'm a big thrifter and vintage store kind of guy. But with the newer, like that description of the swing girl kind of thing, I don't even know who makes the stuff. There are vintage stores that cater to country-western or mod. There's shop in Portland called Poker Face and they cater to both mod and swing kids. You can get all sorts of stuff at places like that but you have to search - they're little boutiques.

And if you don't live in a major city or college town you have to go to the Good Will or Salvation Army.

Yeah, and approximate it. It's like any other time in history, it's exciting. Also you can, if you go to the straight-on vintage clothes shops, you'll just find those print dresses and regular double-breasted suits. You'll never find a zoot suit. These kids come up to me every day and say "Where do you find your zoot suits?" You don't find zoot suits. It would be like finding a caveman outfit. You don't find it. You've got to either have your mom make you one or look in the Yellow Pages and find somebody who can make a suit. You could probably get one for $150 to $180. Or there are some places that are in the major cities that are good zoot shops. I know of a place in Denver and a place in Los Angeles. There's a few of them out there. I know the place in Denver is trying to get its web site together. And they sell the long chain - that's something we didn't mention before - that go down to your, however long you want it to be. Mostly they're down to your knee. I have one that goes down further than that and it becomes difficult when you're dancing around. You might break your neck.

The summer's coming up, you guys are going out on the Warped Tour. What should a hipster wear for a day out at the show?

For the rockabilly swing person?

Yeah!

Well, you basically wear your blue jeans, Levis, with the cuffs rolled up. And the gas station attendant black boots or your motorcycle boots. And a wife-beater. It's hot so you can show your tattoos off. Also there's the kind of '50s shirt that are short-sleeved and have a print and an angular sort of California print on the front.

Like argyle?

Yeah, like an argyle print. But a kind of light sport shirt that your grandpa wears that is button down. They look like a bowling shirt, but on the front they have a pattern that's usually not a swirly pattern but something that are real straight like squares, or triangles. And they're short-sleeved and those are nice and comfortable too. And chinos, or some sort of pants. Jack Kerouac kind of chinos.

Any parting words?

I think maybe the important thing to add with all the swing tips is try to make it your own and not become a living cliche. Like the thing with our music, try to make it '90s as opposed to look exactly retro. I've seen these kids come out to shows with a chartreuse zoot suit that's kind of velvety, and a leopard-print shirt on that's really loud, and it looked really great. They had their mom make it, and it looks killer. And they had their classic car and everything. It's really important to stake your own version of the thing - go see L.A. Confidential and see how they look.

Yeah and I think it takes a certain amount of confidence to leave the house looking like that anyway. So it kind of helps if you know what you're doing.

It's really about not making the scene but using the things in the scene that feels right to you.

Cool. I think that's a good message for the children of America.

Yeah. Or you'd have major goose-stepping swing kids and no creative artists in this fashion troop.

A swing army.